I feel like with this whole 'Goncharov' (1973) resurgence thing going on, too many people are completely ignoring the underrated book trilogy that the film is originally based on. They updated the time period and setting for the movie narrative, but it's basically the same story minus that ridiculous 'Ice-Pick Joe' henchman character which they added in for some reason, and the fruit market scene that preludes Katya and Sofia's affair is originally a flashback from 'Mob Love' between Katya and her childhood friend visiting from Petrograd.

Okay I’ve been mostly quiet because I’m not used to writing meta but Ice Pick Joe is one of my favourite characters because he actually works as a contrast to Goncharov.

The whole film is about Goncharov desperately trying to hold on to this empire he’s created in an attempt to find and believe in his own identity. Y’know, the broken mirrors and the empty photo frames. All that stuff.

I get it. Initially, a guy who is barely named in the credits isn’t exactly the person you’d expect to be part of a theme of identity on the side of true identity But. Ice Pick Joe is his identity. He’s perfectly happy with that. He doesn’t need to be known everywhere. He doesn’t need to have an empire and a legacy. He’s happy being a henchman. He’s got his ice pick and his cat and that’s enough for him. He’s happy doing his own thing, even if some of that is ‘ridiculous’. Goncharov has the opportunity to learn from him—to see a man who doesn’t have much and yet is happy anyway—and part of the tragedy is that he doesn’t learn from him.

I haven’t read the books so I’m sorry if they do something similar or that you think is better to work with the same theme but I won’t hear ice pick Joe slander on my dash.

So yeah, Ice Pick Joe is a ridiculous henchmen character, but that’s the whole point.

Ok but just to play Devil’s advocate here, I think Ice Pick Joe isn’t just a ridiculous henchman— but I don’t think he’s there as an inspiration for Goncharov to learn from, I think he’s there as a warning. In 1940, Trotsky was assassinated with an ice axe, but one of those common historical misconceptions everyone has is that it was an ice pick. (Possibly because “he was killed with an ice pick” is inherently funnier, or possibly because very few Americans know what an ice axe is.)

Anyway, I think there’s a deliberate Trotsky-Goncharov parallel being drawn in the narrative with Goncharov being basically in exile in Naples and trying to fight against something much larger than him that’s taken over a home he can never return to, and KNOWING it’s futile but continuing to fight anyway. There’s also the fact that Trotsky was pretty much written out of Soviet history for a long, and rehabilitated later even than most of Stalin’s enemies (and certainly not before the novels). This ties in with the empty photo frames; not only is he unable to recognize himself, but he understands that no one will remember him as he truly was once he’s gone. No one thinks of this because the political views of Trotsky vs. Goncharov don’t really align, but that’s because the author wasn’t making a political statement. He was making a statement about the character of Goncharov, and once again demonstrating an example of characters refusing to give up in the face of their inevitable tragic ends. You can’t go back (Goncharov in Naples, Sofia’s burned orphanage) and so you have to move forward, even knowing what’s waiting for you.

Yes, Ice Pick Joe is ridiculous, because he is at once a symbol of the inevitable cruelty of fate but also the senseless and sometimes even hilarious absurdity of it all. We all know he’s going to betray Goncharov. He acts ridiculous because it’s like a cartoon depiction of someone whistling and trying very hard to look innocent and completely failing. And yet, Goncharov still keeps him around, because he knows he’ll be betrayed one way or another— and in the meantime he might as well have a fool around to make him laugh sometimes. Anyway, just my two cents! I haven’t actually read these since like sophomore year of high school, and at that point I was just reading them because I’d heard about the Sofia/Katya relationship.

You guys aren't even gonna mention how hot he was???

Ice Pick Joe I'm so sorry sweetie!

'Ice Pick Joe' Blorbo Defense Squad up in absolute arms!

I feel like with this whole 'Goncharov' (1973) resurgence thing going on, too many people are completely ignoring the underrated book trilogy that the film is originally based on. They updated the time period and setting for the movie narrative, but it's basically the same story minus that ridiculous 'Ice-Pick Joe' henchman character which they added in for some reason, and the fruit market scene that preludes Katya and Sofia's affair is originally a flashback from 'Mob Love' between Katya and her childhood friend visiting from Petrograd.

originally just put this in the tags but i can not stress this enough there ACTUALLY WAS an author named ivan goncharov and his three most well known novels are The Same Old Story (1847), Oblomov (1859), and The Precipice (1869). this part is not fake or a bit on god pinky swear and google it

Oh, sure, an unknown author who just happens to have the same name as the protagonist from Scorsese's seminal masterpiece? Come on, now! I mean, 'The Same Old Story' has got to be the most unimaginative title for a fake novel I've ever heard of! And 'Oblomov'?! That's not a real name! That's just an anagram of 'Mob Love' with one of the vowels changed. You'll have to do better than that!

I feel like with this whole 'Goncharov' (1973) resurgence thing going on, too many people are completely ignoring the underrated book trilogy that the film is originally based on. They updated the time period and setting for the movie narrative, but it's basically the same story minus that ridiculous 'Ice-Pick Joe' henchman character which they added in for some reason, and the fruit market scene that preludes Katya and Sofia's affair is originally a flashback from 'Mob Love' between Katya and her childhood friend visiting from Petrograd.

Okay I’ve been mostly quiet because I’m not used to writing meta but Ice Pick Joe is one of my favourite characters because he actually works as a contrast to Goncharov.

The whole film is about Goncharov desperately trying to hold on to this empire he’s created in an attempt to find and believe in his own identity. Y’know, the broken mirrors and the empty photo frames. All that stuff.

I get it. Initially, a guy who is barely named in the credits isn’t exactly the person you’d expect to be part of a theme of identity on the side of true identity But. Ice Pick Joe is his identity. He’s perfectly happy with that. He doesn’t need to be known everywhere. He doesn’t need to have an empire and a legacy. He’s happy being a henchman. He’s got his ice pick and his cat and that’s enough for him. He’s happy doing his own thing, even if some of that is ‘ridiculous’. Goncharov has the opportunity to learn from him—to see a man who doesn’t have much and yet is happy anyway—and part of the tragedy is that he doesn’t learn from him.

I haven’t read the books so I’m sorry if they do something similar or that you think is better to work with the same theme but I won’t hear ice pick Joe slander on my dash.

So yeah, Ice Pick Joe is a ridiculous henchmen character, but that’s the whole point.

Ok but just to play Devil’s advocate here, I think Ice Pick Joe isn’t just a ridiculous henchman— but I don’t think he’s there as an inspiration for Goncharov to learn from, I think he’s there as a warning. In 1940, Trotsky was assassinated with an ice axe, but one of those common historical misconceptions everyone has is that it was an ice pick. (Possibly because “he was killed with an ice pick” is inherently funnier, or possibly because very few Americans know what an ice axe is.)

Anyway, I think there’s a deliberate Trotsky-Goncharov parallel being drawn in the narrative with Goncharov being basically in exile in Naples and trying to fight against something much larger than him that’s taken over a home he can never return to, and KNOWING it’s futile but continuing to fight anyway. There’s also the fact that Trotsky was pretty much written out of Soviet history for a long, and rehabilitated later even than most of Stalin’s enemies (and certainly not before the novels). This ties in with the empty photo frames; not only is he unable to recognize himself, but he understands that no one will remember him as he truly was once he’s gone. No one thinks of this because the political views of Trotsky vs. Goncharov don’t really align, but that’s because the author wasn’t making a political statement. He was making a statement about the character of Goncharov, and once again demonstrating an example of characters refusing to give up in the face of their inevitable tragic ends. You can’t go back (Goncharov in Naples, Sofia’s burned orphanage) and so you have to move forward, even knowing what’s waiting for you.

Yes, Ice Pick Joe is ridiculous, because he is at once a symbol of the inevitable cruelty of fate but also the senseless and sometimes even hilarious absurdity of it all. We all know he’s going to betray Goncharov. He acts ridiculous because it’s like a cartoon depiction of someone whistling and trying very hard to look innocent and completely failing. And yet, Goncharov still keeps him around, because he knows he’ll be betrayed one way or another— and in the meantime he might as well have a fool around to make him laugh sometimes. Anyway, just my two cents! I haven’t actually read these since like sophomore year of high school, and at that point I was just reading them because I’d heard about the Sofia/Katya relationship.

I feel like with this whole 'Goncharov' (1973) resurgence thing going on, too many people are completely ignoring the underrated book trilogy that the film is originally based on. They updated the time period and setting for the movie narrative, but it's basically the same story minus that ridiculous 'Ice-Pick Joe' henchman character which they added in for some reason, and the fruit market scene that preludes Katya and Sofia's affair is originally a flashback from 'Mob Love' between Katya and her childhood friend visiting from Petrograd.